Reisebericht: Hridski jezero 1

Hello, dear Marko,

what many wonderful pictures.

Interesting long stolones. You are not sure, that they belong to S. marmoreum?

In the "Reiseberichte" from Montenegro of jezour the S. marmoreum also have got these long red stolones.
And the flowers in your pictures look like S. marmoreum too.

For our Naturformen-Lexikon I can try to begin with some heuffeliis later this day.

Thank you very much.

LG

Sempernicki

Hi Marko,

thank you for your report from this part of Prokletije mountains and for wonderful photos. I see you solve the same problem with identification of Sempervivums. The plants on your photos looks same as the plants I saw on Valušnica or in the valley of Ropojana.
I would say, that the glabrous plants belongs to Sempervivum marmoreum ssp. marmoreum. There is a problem with plants with hairy rosette leaves, it is also Sempervivum marmoreum, but can we classify these plants as Sempervivum marmoreum ssp. marmoreum? We discussed this problem about two months ago.

Once again - thank you for your report and photos.

Regards,
jezour

Dear Sempernicki and jezour,
glad you like my pics. There were so many of them, it was really hard to choose.
Even now, I think I put too much :)

Plants around the lake had very pointy flowers and the color was different, but now I think it could also be because they grow in half shade. I assume they all probably belong to S.marmoreum complex.

jezour, our discussion about S.marmoreum is not over. I just have to finish some article about Sedum first and than I'm all back in Sempervivum marmoreum.
I really appreciate your opinion and help. Both glabrous and pilose form at first view resemble plants in Croatia. Population around the lake was confusing, but as I've said before, It was probably because of the shade.

They way I climbed on Krš Bogićevica was second stupidest thing I have done on this trip (after Pliješ Mt in Bosnia adventure...). I climbed over the rocks not knowing there is better way around the peak

Hi Marko,

I think that the plants from Prokletije are different from these from coastal mountain ranges of Croatia and Montenegro (labeled as Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum).

The plants of Sempervivum marmoreum from Prokletije are smaller and there more rosette leaves in their rosettes. The rosettes (bigger rosettes) has also a bit different shape – if the long rosette leaves at the border of rosettes are present, have the rosette shape of deep and quite narrow bowl. The rosette leaves of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum are more succulent.

The most noticeable difference is offsets. The offsets of plants from Prokletije are much more longer and much more thinner than the offsets of Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum.

Did you observe also hairs on the surface of rosette leaves? The rosette from Ropojana valley were glandular hairy, but not so densely glandular hairy. I think, Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum could be only hairy.

I also think, that the plants from Prokletije live in another climatic conditions than Sempervivum marmoreum var. dinaricum.

Best regards,
jezour

Thanks, what great pictures

Sempernicki thank you for the effort :)

yysch glad you like it!

Dear jezour,
I have also noticed plants are smaller, and now when I have them in culture, I can confirm they remain smaller. Stolons seem longer, although my plants from Croatia sometimes produce longer stolons, sometimes shorter.
What you say is true in general, but in populations you can observe different stolon length. On the pic you can see plant from Mt.Kamešnica in Bosnia (part of the mountain is in Croatia) with quite long stolons.

Observing hairs in detail is something I'm trying to master lately :)

If I'm not mistaken, var. dinaricum can be found in Bosnia also, where climate is also very harsh, although Croatian mountains have quite harsh climate, despite the nearness of Mediterranean.

Hi Marko,

yes, you are true - S. marmoreum var. dinaricum grows also in Bosnia. It was even described from Bosnian mountains. On ceratin part of Bosnia reign almost same climatic conditions as in the coastal mountains of Croatia and Montenegro. I think, you can say it better, because you have visited these places.

Did you observed offsets the plants from Kamešnica also in the cultural conditions? Do these plants create also so long offsets in culture? Or are the offsets shorter?

I observed, that plants of Sempervivum marmoreum from Montenegro (included Komovi, Durmitor) create quite thin and long offsetes, this character is present also in cultural conditions.

Regards,
jezour

Hi jezour,
I have to say that plant on the picture is not a good representative of population from Mt.Kamešnica. This small colony was growing on a rock and they suffered extremes stress, that's why the rosettes were much, much smaller than usual, and the offsets look longer.
Plants on (and from) Kamešnica are quite typical S. marmoreum ssp. marmoreum, you would probably also say var. dinaricum.

It seems to me that form from Ljubičko brdo on Mt.Velebit has the longest stolons from all Croatian forms. I think I have sent you an offset. This population is quite unique. G.Dumont also noticed that.

All Croatian and Bosnian forms have thicker stolons as you've noticed, but it's probably only matter of proportions. Bigger plant=thicker stolons

Hi Marko,

thank you for next details about plants from Mt. Kamešnica.

I see also next differences by S. marmoreum var. dinaricum:
- although not so big, they have about the same number of rosette leaves
- the rosette leaves are thicker (more succulent)
- a bit another shape of rosette leaves (in upper third, rosette leavers are not so wide, shorter tips)
- ecological differences (the most water become the plants in spring and in late autumn, very hot summer, climatic conditions are influenced probably by to sea)
- less petals, petals more narrow

The extraordinaryness is shown of S. marmoreum var. dinaricum is shown for example in thesis of Klein and Kadereit.

Best regards,
jezour